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Fossil Identification


Is it a sponge ?


fifbrindacier   11-10-2017 at 20:09

fifbrindacier
Junior Member
Registered: 07-12-2016
Messages: 13











Hi everybody, that's not the first time i consult that very interesting site, specially to try to identify the sponges i have.
I suppose the following piece is a sponge.
I found it in the Cenomanian of the village or Port des Barques near the town of Rochefort, in the department of Charentes-Maritimes, Sputh-West of France.
The scale i used is in centimeters.

 
hubertus68   11-10-2017 at 20:22

hubertus68
Senior Member
Photo Moderator
Registered: 12-11-2012
Messages: 2077

Hi! Welcome to to fossiel.net. It is indeed a very interesting site and a perfect place for discussion.

Could you post some close-up pictures of your fossil? This would help a lot for determination.

Best wishes,
Oliver

 
fifbrindacier   11-10-2017 at 21:21

fifbrindacier
Junior Member
Registered: 07-12-2016
Messages: 13









Thank you Oliver, i have magnified the photos i have. I'll take more tomorrow if necessary.

 
hubertus68   11-10-2017 at 21:58

hubertus68
Senior Member
Photo Moderator
Registered: 12-11-2012
Messages: 2077

Yes, additional photos are indeed neccessary. The ones you magnified are unfortunately too bad for determination.

Best wishes,
Oliver

 
FossilDude   11-10-2017 at 22:13

FossilDude
Moderator
Photo Moderator
Registered: 24-11-2007
Messages: 863

Have you considered the possibility that it could be a coral? Maybe something in the family of Helioporidae, like Polytremacis?

Cheers,
Johan

[Bewerkt door FossilDude op 11-10-2017 om 22:15 NL]

____________________________
Van je hobby je beroep maken.... kan het nog beter?

 
fifbrindacier   11-10-2017 at 22:49

fifbrindacier
Junior Member
Registered: 07-12-2016
Messages: 13

Hi, fossildude. I had concidered it could be some kind of coral, but i'm knew in the fossil domain, and the idea it could be a sponge rather than a coral predominated. I agree that your proposition is a good one.
And i also find that you have a really nice nautilus.

 
FossilDude   12-10-2017 at 10:53

FossilDude
Moderator
Photo Moderator
Registered: 24-11-2007
Messages: 863



Thank you for the compliment.

Maybe you can try to take a close-up photograph of some of the better preserved parts of the specimen, as Oliver already suggested. In the attached photograph I've indicated a part that would be suitable for this.

If it's a Helioporid coral, we should be able to discern the apertures of the smaller zooids. These are tiny little holes surrounding the larger ones.

Cheers,
Johan

____________________________
Van je hobby je beroep maken.... kan het nog beter?

 
fifbrindacier   12-10-2017 at 11:14

fifbrindacier
Junior Member
Registered: 07-12-2016
Messages: 13





Hi, as promised i took some pics of the zone you showed me.

 
hubertus68   12-10-2017 at 11:31

hubertus68
Senior Member
Photo Moderator
Registered: 12-11-2012
Messages: 2077

Dear ?

thank you for the additional pictures. To me it is still not identifyable. I don't see any septae that would hint to a coral. The surface shows no regular structure and is possibly eroded. This makes is difficult to state if this is a coral or f.e. a bryozoan colony. Here is an example of the bryozoon Celleporaria palmata from miocene deposits of France, that lives in symbiosis with the coral Cryptangia: LINK

Finally only a view on transverse or longitudinal sections can lead to a solution.

Best wishes,
Oliver



[Bewerkt door hubertus68 op 12-10-2017 om 11:32 NL]

 
fifbrindacier   12-10-2017 at 16:35

fifbrindacier
Junior Member
Registered: 07-12-2016
Messages: 13

Thank you very much for your answers, both of you.
Cheers.
Sophie.

 
fifbrindacier   12-10-2017 at 19:04

fifbrindacier
Junior Member
Registered: 07-12-2016
Messages: 13

I've looked documents on celleporaria, particularly on that site : LINK, and i see that they are from the neogene or the paleogene.
So, my question is : did this bryozoan occured in the cenomanian ?

Thank you very much.

[Edited by fifbrindacier on 12-10-2017 at 19:26 GMT +1]

[Edited by fifbrindacier on 12-10-2017 at 19:46 GMT +1]

 
fifbrindacier   12-10-2017 at 19:48

fifbrindacier
Junior Member
Registered: 07-12-2016
Messages: 13



Another close up.

 
hubertus68   13-10-2017 at 10:35

hubertus68
Senior Member
Photo Moderator
Registered: 12-11-2012
Messages: 2077

quote:
fifbrindacier schreef:
So, my question is : did this bryozoan occured in the cenomanian ?


Hello Sophie,

no, it didn't. And I don't think that your piece belongs to Celleporaria. By mentioning this species I only wanted to state, that there are more than one possible taxon that resemble your "fossil". It might also be coral like Johan stated. Or even an unidentifyable fossil or sedimentary remains with boreholes of burrowing organisms such as worms, sponges, bivalvia etc.

To my opinion only sections can show up as to whether this piece belongs to one or an other taxon.

Sorry, sometimes determination is very hard and oftenly even impossible. And your piece belongs to these hard to determine pieces.

My advise: if you have an ultrasonic cleaner, try to clean the piece with this. Perhaps more details of the surfacial structure come to light. And if not, you can always make transverse or longitudinal sections. This however implicates that a part or the whole piece has to be destroyed.

Best wishes,
Oliver


 
fifbrindacier   13-10-2017 at 13:33

fifbrindacier
Junior Member
Registered: 07-12-2016
Messages: 13

Thank you very much Oliver, i understand it, i have lot of fossils that will never be properly identified, because they are too worn, or internal casts, etc... I have not the possibility to clean it as you said, it would so imply to destroy it.
I like it as it is, so i won't cut it.
That was the first time i came to that place, next time, i'll have more experience on the kind of fossils that can be found there and in which precise place. For example, there is a very precise place were you can find lots of Arctostreae carinata which are almost nonexistent some meters further away.
So i know where i have more chances to find something like this one, and in a better conservation if i'm lucky. I found it in a place where there was some sphaerulites foliaceus, it was at a few centimeters and in the same matrix of one.
Regards,
Sophie.

 
hubertus68   13-10-2017 at 13:53

hubertus68
Senior Member
Photo Moderator
Registered: 12-11-2012
Messages: 2077

Don't mind Sophie. Most of my fossils are not or improperly identified. Finding fossils is easy, but cleaning, preparing, determining, archiving them means a lot more work.

It's certainly an advantage if you concentrate on special groups of fossils or certain locations or, or, or... Never forget that proper determination is only possible with a broad experience and much literature.

Don't hesitate to show us more of your fossils. Maybe the next one will be easier ;-)

Best wishes,
Oliver

 
fifbrindacier   14-10-2017 at 13:51

fifbrindacier
Junior Member
Registered: 07-12-2016
Messages: 13

Some sponges look like corals, some bryozoans look like sponges and the direction taken by my eyes cross one each other.
I have a little trace on a fossil that question me. I'll post another thread for this.
Thank you very much.
Sophie.

[Edited by fifbrindacier on 16-10-2017 at 12:35 GMT +1]

 
FossilDude   16-10-2017 at 11:29

FossilDude
Moderator
Photo Moderator
Registered: 24-11-2007
Messages: 863

Although I still have the feeling that this piece most likely is a coral from family of Helioporidae, like Polytremacis, I do agree with Oliver that the preservation on this piece unfortunately makes any certain identification very difficult.

I guess the only way to be certain would be to make a cross-section of the fossil, but off course, you would need some specialized equipement for that.

Cheers,
Johan

____________________________
Van je hobby je beroep maken.... kan het nog beter?

 
fifbrindacier   16-10-2017 at 12:32

fifbrindacier
Junior Member
Registered: 07-12-2016
Messages: 13

I agree with you.
Thank you Johan.
Regards,
Sophie.

 




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